Can you please help me in deciding between Fuze, Clip+ and E270?

[jk98]

“You’ve confusing impedance with sensitivity.  With lower sensitivity headphones, you might need an amp.  With lower sensitivity headphones you might need to turn the volume up more.  Going from 16 ohm to 32 ohm drops the volume 3dB.  Thats nothing!  The threshold of detectability is usually around 1 dB for most people.  But that doesn’t mean lower impedance works better.  It doesn’t as I’ve shown above.  It just means that if you get headphones that need an amp, you might need to get an amp.  But you can still easily drive higher impedance headphones provided you pick ones with suitable sensitivity such that an amp isn’t needed.  And in fact doing so will give you slightly better performance then going with very low impedance headphones.”

It isn’t just about the impedance of the headphones though.

Impedance total= output impedance of player * headphone impedance/(output impedance of player + headphone impedance) The greatest amount of power is transfered when the headphone impedance matches the output impedance of the player.

Higher impedance headphones also tend to have a lower sensitivity.

Message Edited by JK98 on 01-25-2010 07:07 PM

[saratoga]

@jk98 wrote:

 

It isn’t just about the impedance of the headphones though.

 

 

For mp3 players the output impedance is pretty small, so really only the headphone impedance matters.  Most people tend to ignore it, although over at ABI we discussed this in detail a while back.

JK98 wrote: 

 

Impedance total= output impedance of player * headphone impedance/(output impedance of player + headphone impedance)

 

 

Actually, for an mp3 player the way we talk about impedance you should be using the Thévenin model, not the Norton model (although your formula would work for other types of amplifiers, which is why i’m guessing it came up when you googled amplifiers).  The Norton model won’t work so well because you can’t measure the short circuit current (the DAC will cut you off to prevent you from damaging it).

See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thévenin’s_theorem

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norton’s_theorem

Using the proper model, the impedance is actually calculated like so: 

Impedance total= output impedance of player + headphone impedance 

On ABI I calculated the output impedance of the Clip using dfkt’s measurements.  Its about 1.6 ohms, quite small compared to the 16-64 ohms typically used in headphones, and so you can safely ignore it.

JK98 wrote: 

 

The greatest amount of power is transfered when the headphone impedance matches the output impedance of the player. 
 

 

  

This is a common misconception.  Its actually completely wrong for these amplifiers, which is why the output impedance of the CLip is 1.6ohms and not 16 ohms :) 

Instead you maximize power transfer by having the smallest possible output resistance.  Ideally it would be zero, in which case the clip would transfer 100% of its power to the headphones.  Instead, with headphones at 16 ohms it transfers 91% of its power to the load.  Conversely, if it had 16 ohms output, and 16 ohm headphones, just 50% of its power would be transferred.  Not very good at all!

Interestingly, efficiency actually increases for larger impedance headphones.   For 32 ohm headphones, over 95% of the output power goes into the headphones (and at 64 ohms, nearly 98% goes)!

[tapeworm]

drlucky wrote:

Message Edited by drlucky on 01-25-2010 03:29 PM

Heyyyy! That’s a derogatory term now and _ so _ not PC (No, not computer, but politically correct). These people have ‘special needs’, they’re not (what it says). Even the Prez had to back-pedal & apologize for his remark about how he bowled as if he were in the Special Olympics. He got flamed big-time.

I think Carlos Mencia says it best . .

[neutron_bob]

Let’s see, we started with…

And we end up with…

Such good sport!  I think that Fuze is sounding better by the minute.  As you can see, my favorite companion is the e200 with Macally soft leather phones.

Bob 

[black_rectangle]

Saratoga, has someone used RMAA to compare the Fuze with the Clip or Clip + ?

[marvin_martian]

My Fuze V1, Clip V1, and Clip V2 all sounded exactly the same…never tried a Clip+ though.

[san_discolo]

Interesting conversation, but, what about my questions?

I am interested in further teachings from Saratoga about headphones and difference between impedance and sensitivity, I like tech specs, but not here and now.

In fact, I may be wrong but I tend to believe that two devices (amps, speakers, headphones, mp3) may have same nominal specs, and even same MECHANIC tests results, but different HUMAN test result. May for different material and components which can give to them a different final SQ, or (to avoid disputes on thech specs) let´s just say different sound.

Personally, I feel more attracted by Crescendo and JK opinions, as they seems to be more human ones, meaning that many people who never listened to a device just answer “it should sound the same because same processor”, and maybe they are right, but Crescendo and JK tryied both devices I can buy, and they say that Fuze V1 sounds better than Clip+.

I still would like to ear for more opinions. I mean, by direct users who used both.

Let me say one more thing: I can only find these devices here, FUZE V1 8gb for US$88, FUZE V2 8gb for US$140 (**bleep**!), FUZE V2 4gb for US$110, CLIP+ 8gb for US$117, CLIP+ 4gb for US$100.

Interesting, isn´t it?

So, as you can imagine the real question is: what the hell changes between Fuze V1 and V2 to let people will to spend SO MUCH MORE money for a V2? Does it worth??? Which one will you get and why?

While if you could get Fuze V2 for just a bit more than V1, which one will you get (and why)?

About Clip+ VS Fuze v1, to be able to decide if Clip+ worths the 30 dolars more (or 12 more, but with 4gb less), I will have to wait for other direct users SQ comparison…

I als oinsiste, among all, the function I most need is shuffle. I CANNOT stand bad shuffle funcion which repeat the same songs all the time.

Given this, a more sofisticated shuffle funcion is welcome, IE shuffle for author, or inside album, or inside folder/subfolder…

This is the last thing, I will not bother you more (for now…)…

[san_discolo]

Ah, sorry for the last answers, I was writing at same time than you and had not seen them yet.

Anyway, still missing something.

Ah, by the way (mostly for Neutron Bob), here I could only get E270 (V1). Af far as I understood, it does not sound as god as the others, not even with Rockbox, so I am concentrating between Fuze V1, Fuze V2, and Clip+.

[neutron_bob]

I see!  I have all of the listed devices, and I listen to them all regularly.  In your list, the v1 Fuze (if you can get a genuine v1) is my recommendation for you, based upon the prices you have found, versatility, and battery life.

The v2 devices employ a custom processor that has integrated memory (RAM) used by the processor; the v1 employs an on-board SDRAM chip that is quite different physically.  The onboard memory device dwarfs the wee processor, making for a radically different printed circuit board design between the two, the v1 and v2.

This difference is quite amazing, actually, considering that it makes shrinking a Fuze down to the size of the new Clip+ possible, though the Clip+ OLED display isn’t tasked with video.  The memory is addressed differently, giving Saratoga a migraine developing Rockbox, as he’ll attest.

I prefer the robust, more basic design of the v1 Fuze.  It will sound and perform the same, but the v1 has proven to be less “finicky” in the long run.  Oh, and Rockbox has been ported to it too.

As for the headphone sensitivity issue, I agree that the larger, less efficient phones want a wee bit more horsepower.  As in my photo above, the 32-ohm Macallys require the volume at 75%, but the Maximo IEMs will sing at 40%, just like the JVC Air Cushions.

For portability, you simply have to try the Clip+, it’s phenomenal, and can share µSD cards with the larger Sansas.  For clean sound and playtime together, the Fuze is excellent.  My only bone to pick with the Fuze is that it requires a dedicated shirt pocket.  Its thin metal back and shell don’t fare well if sat on or pinched in a front bluejeans pocket, though the device is more robust than you’d expect.

Ah, almost forgot about the shuffle function.  This is the cool part.  I like to use it this way: select a genre, like jazz , select Play All , then go to the submenu as the first song begins, selecting shuffle.  The Sansa will take all of my favorite jazz, and will shuffle all of the tracks.  You can skip forward or back through the tracks, and you’ll find that the Sansa has generated an internal playlist of jazz, all shuffled.  Shuffle can be used in many ways.

Bob 

Message Edited by neutron_bob on 01-25-2010 09:17 PM

[marvin_martian]

Quite right Bob…I’m fond of “shuffle artist” (so if I am in the mood for, say, Radiohead, it shuffles their music only) and “shuffle all” which shuffles everything on your Sansa.

[san_discolo]

Ah, Neutron Bob, thanks, you answered to something I was just to post: what about if I could get Fuze V2 at same (or just a bit more) price than V1?

 From your words I do not understand well the supposed advantages of the new arquitecture, but I do understand that you prefer the old, and that even at the same preice you would still pick the V1 (aam I wrong?), and I stay with this.

Given all the received infos till now, I have taken this decision: I will buy Fuze V1, 8gb.

Why?

1. sounds “better” than Clip+, where better stands for “more clear, tridimensional, crispy”. I like that.

2. more battery

3. sounds as well as V2, so, if there are advantages in V2 it is not the sound, and I will NOT pay 50 US$ more for some  subtle secundary difference.

4. it supports Rockbox

5. it has got more pleasant controls

6. of course, it is the cheapest among all the others, here in my place.

If someone has something to say, to add, to contradict, to explain, to suggest, please, talk now or…, well, or talk later, but not too late, I need to buy it this week, possibly wednesday (meaning that tomorrow night I will read your answers and I will take the final decision).

If I buy Fuze V1, why should I put ROckbox and why shouldn’t I?

FOr what I have read till now, I cannot find one single reason not to prefer Rockbox (but the warranty theme, if it expires when I install Rockbox). Am I wrong?

Message Edited by San_Discolo on 01-25-2010 09:43 PM

Message Edited by San_Discolo on 01-26-2010 08:51 PM

[black_rectangle]

Saratoga is one of the Rockbox developers, and he’s an expert on the ins and outs of Sansa gizmos. 

I have taken Rockbox on and off my Fuzev1. It does offer a lot more tweaks, but in the end I found the Fuze firmware does all I need, which is play music.

Still, Rockbox does add games,  a text editor, paint, 3D effects and lots of other bells and whistles.  (Saratoga, could you have it make my morning coffee? Very strong.)  It’s good to have the alternative available–another reason for v1 over v2.

I wouldn’t immediately install Rockbox until you are sure that the Fuze is working properly with its own firmware. But the warranty shouldn’t be a problem–you just uninstall Rockbox and Format the unit before sending it back.  My impression from hanging out on the forum is that most of the time, it’s either defective when it’s new, or it lasts through the yearlong warranty before eventually giving way to mechanical wear. 

And by the way, Sansa’s own firmware has caused some problems with the v2, making the v1 an even better choice. 

When you get your v1, update the firmware manually to the 1.x.31 version from that forum’s front page.  Don’t choose Europe as the region–use Rest of the World, since European laws have lowered the output volume. And don’t bother installing Sansa Updater–updates are infrequent, and you don’t need to have your computer call home every time you connect the Sansa. 

Message Edited by Black-Rectangle on 01-26-2010 08:11 PM

[san_discolo]

Ok, then it is decided.

FUze v1. I have already reserved a unit, tomorrow I will buy it.

I really want to thank you all, you have been very patient and helpfull.

I will choose one answer as solution simbolically but many of you were very helpful.

I have seen a Fuze today. Beautiful. It seemed to me a bit bigger than what I was expecting. But I am decided.

I will surely bother Saratoga. I am very geek with details and I can be quite obsesive with the choices I make, searching and searching…

So, Saratoga, you are warned!